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Side Mount Pedals

Fri, 06/01/2007 - 6:50pm by Andy Shen

Got a set for testing, and they're very interesting. The concept is sound, they feel amazing, but...

There's a bit of a learning curve to clipping in and out. So far I've toppled over once and found myself with no feet clipped in a few times.

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photo of shmaltz
By: andrewri
Tue, 01/01/2008 - 10:22pm

hey andy,
I have an incrimating photo of shmaltz. I am having trouble uploading it to my pictures. can I send it to you?

yikes!!
By: lee
Thu, 01/03/2008 - 2:05pm

I'll admit I like innovative stuff but this contraption seems like another doohicky to piss cash out on. This sport can be a real wallet mine field of widgets and doodads. With all those #"s, that I dont get, and all the graphs and charts you've posted - this thing makes me want to just run and hide!!
Speedplay please!!!

Of
By: Andy
Sun, 12/30/2007 - 4:39pm

Of all its flaws (and I think there are a few), flex is not a problem with these things. The cleat is pretty sturdy. Like I said before, I can't comment on bearing wear, except that I wasn't able to ruin them in six months. You'd expect shorter bearing life with this design, though.

Normal pedals aren't immune to flex either.

I don't like the 'it's worked for hundreds of years so don't try to improve it' line of thought. I like people like Lubanski who try to find a better way, even though I think this pedal is a near miss.

thats
By: Wheelsucker
Sun, 12/30/2007 - 2:54pm

thats the stupidest pedal design ever. the pedal has to compensate for flex now at the angle, instead of applying pressure directly to the axle. what sort of power loss comes from a flexing pedal, as well as putting all the torque onto the bearings instead of the axle. The traditional pedal has worked for over a hundred years, and theres a reason for that.

...must be the lack of ham...
By: bikesgonewild
Sat, 12/29/2007 - 2:35pm

...sorry, i kinda dropped the ball here...
...you're quite right...i was 'imagining' that the extension was in the fore & aft positions rather than 6 & 12...
...not thinking clearly or hallucinating madly ???...wouldn't be the first time for either, i'm sure...
...i do hope you get to test the 'vistas' as i still like the 'axle @ ball of foot' concept & it would be interesting to see how a more natural clip/in clip/out accommodation might be viewed...

...wishing you guys a happy, good riding new year...

What
By: Wheelsucker
Thu, 12/27/2007 - 7:29am

is everyone on vacation?

Re: bear mt
By: HAHAH! This guy is funny
Wed, 12/26/2007 - 11:27am

Yeh! You can start the ride and I will meet u on the way there!

bear mt
By: me
Tue, 12/25/2007 - 8:28pm

you guys does nyone know about the new years ride to bear mt.

I think you're right
By: Jay
Tue, 12/25/2007 - 7:16pm

I've been getting over a virus and off the bike for a week, but I don't think I lost that much in a week. Today was in the low forties and not particularly more windy than the past several weeks. I think part of the loss was not feeling quite up to par and part was the stack height. I do recall getting a bump up in my average speed on endurance rides in the park when I got the Rocket 7s, but it certainly wasn't 2 mph.

re: stack height
By: jp
Tue, 12/25/2007 - 6:32pm

seems doubtful that the width of an adaptor plate could bleed off 2mph avg speed like that...was it also a windy day?
or not feeling well otherwise?

Andy, not scientific, but
By: Jay
Tue, 12/25/2007 - 12:42pm

today I rode in the park trying out a pair of Sidi Hydro GTX winter shoes (I had been trying unsuccessfully to sell them new, but no luck so I finally decided to try them). Of course, I had to use the speedplay adaptor plate and with the thicker soles, I had a much higher stack height than the Rocket 7s. Cleats were placed in roughly the same position as the Rocket 7s. This was my first ride not on the Rocket 7s in a year and a half. My initial feeling with the higher stack height was pretty uncomfortable. Anyway, my riding in the park recently has been endurance zone riding with average speed between 18 and 18.5 mph. Today with the higher stack Sidis, I rode an unstructured ride in endurance, tempo, and subthreshold zones and despite higher heart rate and perceived exertion than my endurance zone rides, my average speed today was a measly 16.2 mph. Sure seems like I'm putting out significantly higher power with the lower stack height Rocket 7s.

On a side note, I was pretty disappointed with the Sidis in terms of foot warmth. My feet were just as cold today in the Sidis with 2 pair of wool socks as they are on 40 degree days in the Rocket 7s with toe covers and booties.

zzzzzzzz
By: yawni
Sun, 12/23/2007 - 2:33pm

zzzzzzzz

I
By: Andy
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 7:23pm

I think I understood about 60% of that. I'm really not that interested in exercise physiology, and I don't understand too much of it.

I think what would be significant is how much lactate drifted in those tests, and if it drifted as much as mine did. Also, those tests were 30 minutes at 70% of vo2peak, while I spent 5 minutes at tempo and 5 minutes at threshold.

I'm boring myself now.

I am so boring
By: mike
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 6:47pm

Unfortunately, to read the entire study, you gotta pay the $$ and I don't remember the difference in Lactate...I no longer have "free" access...And TBH, my insistence on the lactate issue is in response to what seems to be a trend recently pushing expensive testing that, in reality, offers no additional information to the athlete/coach. By correlating RPE,the dependent variable composed of the sum of many physiological "things", like lactate accumulation, heat stress, recent training load, etc. that are going on in the athlete to the actual indepenent variable, power (which are, by the way, variables can be compared day-to-day like you're in a rolling lab)the performance team can make adjustments/gauge training.

I think that certain athletes have come to an epiphany (and rightly so, IMO) that Coggan's L2 (<75%) as established by 40K power doesn't do as good a job pushing "endurance" or "the right" up as effectively as spending more time in the L3 (75-90%)and the fact that the 1 mmol LT is "in" here seems to support the case (ie., this point goes 'up' with training in this range quicker).

Well,
By: Andy
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 6:24pm

Well, I'm not a scientist nor do I claim to be one, the conditions of the test are laid out for you and you can draw your own conclusions. There is no question that the methodology of the test is flawed. We talked about re-testing in reverse, but quite frankly, I didn't want to spend the money (nor endure the pain again). The difference was big enough that I was convinced the SMP's were less efficient for me, but given the sequence of the runs I couldn't say how much definitively.

And I still don't get why lactate is a red herring. I understand that it can drift (which is why we ran what we thought would be the more efficient pedal second), but I don't get why such a huge difference is insignificant.

Also, this shouldn't reflect on Mike Sherry. The test was my idea, his contribution was to set the zones. So if you're going to say someone doesn't understand lactate, that would be me, which I freely admit.

I don't mean for this to seem argumentative, I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say. I tried to read those studies but they made my head spin. Did they mention the magnitude of drift in lactate?

One last thing...
By: mike
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 5:35pm

about lactate...a simple search on pubmed.com will return numerous studies that show repeated bouts of exercise will alter lactate levels in subsequent bouts...
For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&Te...

This one is particular means it can't be used to determine "wuss factor" in repeated bouts even 3.5 hrs apart...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&Te...

I know you're not submitting this for peer review, but this "test" was flawed from the onset...doing it after the speedplay trial on the same day...and tossing in the "red herring" of lactate doesn't prove anything. That the tester doesn't know this speaks volumes about his use of lactate data. (period)

During
By: Andy
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 3:27pm

During that period I make a concerted effort to ride the TT bike a lot. I think I did most of my hard rides on the TT bike, so it was something like 3 rides a week. Lubanski says that there should be no adjustment period

...quick questions...
By: bikesgonewild
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 3:00pm

...although you rode them for 6 months on your tt bike, i would assume you ride a road bike w/ regular pedals a good bit more...should simple physiological adaptability be considered a factor regarding your power output ?...is there just enough of a difference in extension or range through the 360* that your legs & hips won't easily accommodate the motion simply due to lack of experience (regular training) in comparison ?...

...i remember seeing the smp's 3 years ago at the show & immediately thinking that it 'seemed' like a sound bio-mechanical concept...you & mr zinn concur on that aspect & also on the fact that the smp's unwieldy attachment function can be a problem...it stands to reason that bearing load would also be problematic...

...sweet talk vista into a test of their version for the road bike although it's obvious cornering clearance will be a compromise...
...cheers...

one more thing...
By: Andy
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 10:59am

In doing tests, I often find that I go into them with a pre-conceived bias. I usually root for the product to be good. In my homemade wind tunnel helmet test, I wanted my sponsor's helmet to win, and had to try very hard to be neutral and accurate when taking measurements. In this case, I think it's good to have a number (lactate) that I can't consciously control verify the outcome. I went into this test expecting the SMP's to win, so I'm sure we would've tested and re-tested if I was just relying on perception. I think we would've done the test 1 or 2 more times before I trusted my perception.

Ah.
By: Andy
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 10:42am

Ah. I only reached 8.4 the second time because the interval was cut short. Who knows what number I would've reached after 5 minutes? So 10 vs 8.4 is not a conclusive comparison. I find perception so unreliable (even though in this case it correlated), and I think the results would've been less persuasive to most people if I merely stated "it was harder on the SMP's".

Hip Angle/Lactate
By: Mike
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 10:33am

Andy,
You're absolutely right about the hip angle...my error. Regarding the testing, you stated that at 250W you "began to suffer" and 300W "was ...torture (and you) failed" after having ridden with the SMP's. This would have been enough evidence for me that the SMP's made generating as much power harder and that Speedplays were my choice for power generation...had you performed the same test with the Speedplays again, you would have found a slightly different lactate profile the second time from the first while still finding power easier to come by. Using the lactate measurement to determine wussy-ness is not IMO necessary OR dependable...ie., does the fact you reached "only" 8.4 mmol as opposed to 10 indicative that you tried harder the first time or that the second time you wussed?
Mike

Andy's right
By: Jay
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 10:02am

The no stack height pedal had him lower his saddle. Keeping his bar at the same height would make his hip angle more open not more closed.

I
By: Andy
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 9:03am

I have to admit I don't understand the first paragraph. I hadn't perceived the difference while riding, and I don't race with a power meter, so I don't know if my power was down in races. Also, had it not been for the lactate numbers, I might have just thought myself a wuss for not completing the second 300 watt interval. Can you clarify what you meant?

I couldn't drop my bars any more without getting a adjustable stem, so I just left the bars as is. But my hip angle was more open with the SMP's.

RPE/Field Test/Lactate
By: Mike
Sat, 12/22/2007 - 5:08am

Excellent example for illustrating that the RPE correlates very highly with both power output AND lactate measurement (in a relative sense). For me, the takeaway message is the results/conclusions would not change had lactate been omitted. "Field testing" showed that 250W felt harder with the SMP's and that 300W wasn't complete-able. Lactate analysis contributed nothing and was meaningless without power to correlate it to.

And a quick question Andy: Did you alter bar positions for the test to maintain "other" angles? (Perhaps the higher power requirements were made more difficult as a result of "closing" the angle at the hip)

Good point
By: Andy
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 4:33pm

Reminds me of a very geeky blues radio DJ at the U of Chicago. A couple of cute girls were teasing him, asking him what his fantasy was, and he answered without hesitation, 'playing harmonica with the Muddy Waters band'. Actually, I just realized I'm geekier than that guy.

THIS
By: Wheelsucker
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 3:47pm

is what you fantasize about?

Ok...
By: Andy
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 2:06pm

Since we're talking about my fantasy life, I'll go with the Rocket 7's.

Andy, why not the fully custom
By: Jay
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 2:01pm

Rocket 7 at 180 grams a shoe? I have the semi custom; stock size, custom footbed, and speedplay drilling. They're stiff, comfortable, and crazy light.

In my fantasy life
By: Andy
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 1:38pm

I would get the Lake Cycling moldable shoe with Speedplay drilling.

nice review
By: Jay
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 10:37am

a somewhat expensive way to lower stack height, but keep q factor with speedplays is to get Rocket 7 shoes with their special speedplay drilling. Between their thinner carbon sole and the lack of the speedplay adaptor plate that you no longer need, you get a significantly lower stack height. I have used this for over a year and like the set up.

what
By: Wheelsucker
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 10:21am

what about float?

Nobody wants to
By: Wheelsucker
Fri, 12/21/2007 - 8:09am

say anything about mounting from the side vs being on top.

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